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grindcore
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Posted 06-07-2006 16:34 by grindcore Profiel van grindcore

quote:
Op 5 juli 2006 23:46 schreef MystuS het volgende:
Polyritmiek moet je voelen. Dat moet grooven. Luister Meshuggah, klaar ben je.

Meshuggah is te basic kwa polyritmiek. Eerder Dillinger escape plan, Ion dissonance en jazz


MystuS
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Posted 06-07-2006 19:40 by MystuS Profiel van MystuS

Vette bands, Dillinger en Ion Dissanonce, maar het is niet echt polyritmiek in dienst van het liedje. Meer freaken om het freaken, wel gaaf!
Maar polyritmiek moet grooven. Dat moet je horen, en je hoofd niet kunnen tegen houden om mee te bouncen.


Drummer nodig?


Snaack
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Posted 06-07-2006 20:01 by Snaack Profiel van Snaack

quote:
Op 6 juli 2006 16:34 schreef grindcore het volgende:
Meshuggah is te basic kwa polyritmiek.


Dan moet je toch even wat beter gaan luisteren of analyses over de songstructuren van Meshuggah gaan bestuderen..

Alleen Tomas speelt al polyritmische ritmes waar ik een punthoofd van krijg. Dan gaat de rest van de band er nog overheen.

De truc bij Meshuggah is dat het grooved als een gek waardoor het basic lijkt terwijl het enorm ingewikkeld is.

quote:
Eerder Dillinger escape plan


Hmmz.. Bij DEP valt het qua polyritmiek wel mee vind ik. Vooral Chris impliceert polyritmiek door hele vage accenten in lineaire ritmes te spelen, maar dan is het dus geen polyritmiek.

Ze spelen vooral veel "odd" maatsoorten en gebruiken veel maffe accenten.


Jällö
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Posted 06-07-2006 20:50 by Jällö Profiel van Jällö

Ik heb Thomas Haake nog nooit een polyrhythm horen spelen. Wel polymetres, maar da's heel wat anders.
Als band een polyrhythm spelen is ook wat anders dan dit als drummer te doen, dat dat even duidelijk is.

Ik moet daarbij wel zeggen dat ik Meshuggah niet zo héél goed ken.
Misschien kan een kenner mij een polyrhythm van Meshuggah aanwijzen?


Information is not knowledge is not wisdom is not truth


Babylon
De enige echte
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Posted 06-07-2006 20:54 by Babylon Profiel van Babylon

Volgens mij ben jij gewoon de enige in de wereld die de term polymeter gebruikt, eigenwijs


zo kan ie wel weer


Jällö
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Posted 06-07-2006 21:05 by Jällö Profiel van Jällö

Volgens mij wordt er gewoon veel te veel geluld door mensen die totaal geen kennis hebben van muziektheorie. Het is trouwens polymetre, niet polymeter.

Ik ben inderdaad best eigenwijs, maar als ik ongelijk blijk te hebben geef ik dat barmhartig toe!


Information is not knowledge is not wisdom is not truth


Babylon
De enige echte
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Posted 06-07-2006 21:09 by Babylon Profiel van Babylon

Geef dan nu maar toe dat je het zelf ook polymeter hebt genoemd een paar posts terug

En ik blijf het polyritme noemen want zo noem ik het altijd al tegen iedereen.. En iedereen weet waar ik het over heb

Ookal weet ik wel dat jij gelijk hebt en dat polyritme een foute naam ervoor is.

[Dit bericht is gewijzigd door Babylon op 06-07-2006 21:09]


zo kan ie wel weer


Jällö
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Posted 06-07-2006 21:58 by Jällö Profiel van Jällö

quote:
Op 6 juli 2006 21:09 schreef Babylon het volgende:
Geef dan nu maar toe dat je het zelf ook polymeter hebt genoemd een paar posts terug


Ow shit ja, metre en meter zijn beide correct. Kwestie van US vs. UK Engels geloof ik.


Information is not knowledge is not wisdom is not truth


Babylon
De enige echte
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Posted 06-07-2006 22:16 by Babylon Profiel van Babylon

En in het Nederlands dan?

Polyritme zeker?


zo kan ie wel weer


Aaaarco
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Posted 06-07-2006 23:34 by Aaaarco Profiel van Aaaarco

punt blijft dat t irritante shit is...


In black metal maakt men grapjes over religie... aldus pindakaasruud


Snaack
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Posted 07-07-2006 0:16 by Snaack Profiel van Snaack

Zeiksnorren. Waarom zelf nadenken als je google onder vingerbereik hebt

quote:

Metre (music)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Metre or meter is the measurement of a musical line into measures of stressed and unstressed "beats", indicated in Western music notation by a symbol called a time signature. Properly, "metre" describes the whole concept of measuring rhythmic units, but it can also be used as a specific descriptor for a measurement of an individual piece as represented by the time signature—for example, "This piece is in 4/4 metre" is equivalent to "This piece is in 4/4 time" or "This piece has a 4/4 time signature".

Metre is an entrainment, a representation of changing aspects of music as patterns of temporal invariance, allowing listeners to synchronize their perception, cognition, and behaviour with musical rhythms. Rhythm is distinguished from metre in that rhythms are patterns of duration while "metre involves our initial perception as well as subsequent anticipation of a series of beats that we abstract from the rhythm surface of the music as it unfolds in time" (London 2004, p.4-5).

Ametric music includes chant, some graphically scored works since the 1950s, and non-European folk music such as honkyoku repertoire for shakuhachi (Karpinski 2000, p.19).
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Rhythmic metre
o 1.1 Polymetre
o 1.2 Metric structure
+ 1.2.1 Deep structure
* 2 Metre in song
* 3 Sources
* 4 See also

[edit]

Rhythmic metre

There are four different time signatures in common use:

* Simple duple (ex. 4/4)
* Simple triple (ex. 3/4)
* Compound duple (ex. 6/8)
* Compound triple (ex. 9/8)


If each beat in a measure is divided into two parts, it is simple metre, and if divided into three it is compound. If each measure is divided into two beats, it is duple metre, and if three it is triple. Some people also label quadruple, while some consider it as two duples. The latter is more consistent with the above labelling system, as any other division above triple, such as quintuple, is considered as duple+triple (12123) or triple+duple (12312), depending on the accents in the musical example. However, in some music a quintuple may be treated and perceived as one unit of five, especially at faster tempos.

"Once a metric hierarchy has been established, we, as listeners, will maintain that organization as long as minimal evidence is present" (Lester 1986, p.77). Duple time is far more common than triple (Krebs 2005, p.16). Most popular music is in 4/4 time, though often may be in 2/2 or cut time such as in bossa nova. Doo-wop and some other rock styles are frequently in 12/8, or may be interpreted as 4/4 with heavy swing. Similarly, most classical music before the 20th century tended to stick to relatively straightforward metres such as 4/4, 3/4 and 6/8, though variations on these such as 3/2 and 6/4 are also found. By the 20th century, composers were using less regular metres, such as 5/4 and 7/8.

Also in the 20th century, it became relatively more common to switch metre frequently—the end of Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring is a particularly extreme example—and the use of asymmetrical rhythms where each beat is a different length became more common: such metres include already discussed quintuple rhythms as well as more complex constructs along the lines of 2+5+3/4 time, where each bar has a 2-beat unit, a 5-beat unit, and a 3-beat unit, with a stress at the beginning of each unit; similar metres are used in various folk musics. Other music has no metre at all (free time) (such as drone-based music as exemplified by La Monte Young), features rhythms so complex that any metre is obscured (such as in serialism), or is based on additive rhythms (such as some music by Philip Glass).

Metre is often combined with a rhythmic pattern to produce a particular style. This is true of dance music, such as the waltz or tango, which have particular patterns of emphasizing beats which are instantly recognizable. This is often done to make the music coincide with slow or fast steps in the dance, and can be thought of as the musical equivalent of prosody. Sometimes, a particular musician or composition becomes identified with a particular metric pattern; such is the case with the so-called Bo Diddley beat.

Polymetre

Polymetre is the use of two metric frameworks simultaneously, or in regular alternation. Examples include Béla Bartók's "Second String Quartet". Leonard Bernstein's "America" (from West Side Story) employs alternating measures of 6/8 (compound duple) and 3/4 (simple triple). This gives a strong sense of two, followed by three, stresses (indicated in bold type): // I-like-to be-in-A // ME RI CA//.

An example from the rock canon is "Kashmir" by the seminal British hard-rock quartet Led Zeppelin, in which the percussion articulates 4/4 while the melodic instruments present a riff in 3/4. In "Toads Of The Short Forest" (from the album Weasels Ripped My Flesh), composer Frank Zappa explains: "At this very moment on stage we have drummer A playing in 7/8, drummer B playing in 3/4, the bass playing in 3/4, the organ playing in 5/8, the tambourine playing in 3/4, and the alto sax blowing his nose." The math metal band Meshuggah uses complex polymetres even more extensively; typically the songs are constructed in 4/4, with guitar riffing and bass drum patterns in unusual metres such as 11/8 and 23/16. Usually the riffs are forced to resolve after 4 or 8 measures resulting in a shorter 'fitpiece' which has a different metre from the rest of the section.

Perceptually there appears to be little or no basis for polymetre as research shows that listeners either extract a composite pattern that is fitted to a metric framework, or focus on one rhythmic stream while treating others as "noise". This upholds the tenet that "the figure-ground dichotomy is fundamental to all perception" (Boring 1942, p.253), (London 2004, p.49-50).

Metric structure

Metric structure includes metre, tempo, and all rhythmic aspects which produce temporal regularity or structure, against which the foreground details or durational patterns are projected (Wittlich 1975, chap. 3).

Rhythmic units can be metric, intrametric, contrametric, or extrametric.

Metric levels may be distinguished. The beat level is the metric level at which pulses are heard as the basic time unit of the piece. Faster levels are division levels, and slower levels are multiple levels (Wittlich 1975, chap. 3).

Hypermetre is large-scale metre (as opposed to surface-level metre) created by hypermeasures which consist of hyperbeats (Stein 2005, p.329). The term was coined by Cone (1968) while London (2004, p.19) asserts that there is no perceptual distinction between metre and hypermetre.

A metric modulation is a modulation from one metric unit or metre to another.
[edit]

]Deep structure

C. S. Lee (1985) has described musical metre in terms of deep structure, where, through rewrite rules, different metres (4/4, 3/4, etc) generate many different surface rhythms. For example the first phrase of The Beatles' A Hard Day's Night, without the syncopation, may be generated from its metre of 4/4:


4/4 4/4 4/4
/ \ / \ / \
2/4 2/4 2/4 2/4 2/4 2/4
| / \ | | | \
| 1/4 1/4 | | | \
| / \ / \ | | |
| 1/8 1/8 1/8 1/8 | | |
| | | | | | | |
It's been a hard day's night
(Middleton 1990, p.211).


Metre in song

Issues involving metre in song reflect a combination of musical metre and poetic metre, especially when the song is in a standard verse form. Traditional and popular songs fall heavily within a limited range of metres, leading to a fair amount of interchangeability. For example, early hymnals commonly did not include musical notation, but simply texts. The text could be sung to any tune known by the singers that had a matching metre, and the tune chosen for a particular text might vary from one occasion to another.

One case that illustrates the potential use of this principle across musical genres is The Blind Boys of Alabama's rendition of the hymn Amazing Grace, which is sung to the musical setting made famous by The Animals in their version of the folk song The House of the Rising Sun.



bron


Snaack
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Posted 07-07-2006 0:18 by Snaack Profiel van Snaack

En meer.

quote:
Polyrhythm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Polyrhythm is the simultaneous sounding of two or more independent rhythms. Polyrhythms are hence to be distinguished from irrational rhythms, which can occur within the context of a single part, whereas polyrhythms require at least two rhythms to be played concurrently.

A simple example of a polyrhythm is 3 evenly-spaced notes against 2, with the 3-beat pattern being faster than the 2-beat pattern, so that they both take the same amount of time (see sesquialtera). Other simple polyrhythms are 3:4, 4:3, 5:4, 7:4, etc.

Another form of polyrhythm, which might also be termed polymeter, would be phrasing to suggest a different meter than the one being played by the rest of the ensemble. A common example of this in jazz would be phrasing quarter notes in groupings of 3 to suggest 3/4 time while the ensemble plays in 4/4. Compare with hemiola (not a polyrhythm). Traditional African music is heavily polyrhythmic, although, unlike the examples given below, the downbeats do not usually coincide. Frank Zappa, especially towards the end of his career, experimented a lot with complex polyrhythms, such as 11:17, and even nested polyrhythms. The metal band Meshuggah also uses polyrhythms in their music, although their quirkiness is mostly of a polymetric nature. Contemporary progressive metal bands such as Tool and Portal also incorporate polyrhythms in their music. Much minimalist and totalist music makes extensive use of polyrhythms. Henry Cowell and Conlon Nancarrow created music with yet more complex polytempo and using irrational numbers like pi:e.

Common polyrhythms found in jazz are 3:2, which manifests as the quarter-note triplet; 2:3, usually in the form of dotted-quarter notes against quarter notes; 4:3, played as dotted-eight notes against quarter notes (this one demands some technical proficiency to perform accurately, and was not at all common in jazz before Tony Williams used it when playing with Miles Davis); and finally 3/4 time against 4/4, which along with 2:3 was used famously by Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner playing with John Coltrane.

Cuban music makes extensive use of polyrhythms. Cuban Rumba uses 3-based and 2-based rhythms at the same time, for example, the lead drummer (playing the quinto) might play in 6/8, while the rest of the ensemble keeps playing 2/2.
[edit]

Examples

The following is an example of a 2 against 3 polyrhythm, given in time unit box system (TUBS) notation; each box represents a fixed unit of time; time progresses from the left of the diagram to the right, although this is irrelevant since the pattern is symmetric. Beats are indicated with an X; rests are indicated with a blank.
2 against 3 polyrhythm 3-beat rhythm X X X X X X X X X X X X
2-beat rhythm X X X X X X X X

A common memory aid to help with the 2 against 3 polyrhythm is that it has the same rhythm as the phrase "not difficult"; the simultaneous beats occur on the word "not"; the second and third of the triple beat land on "dif" and "cult", respectively. The second 2-beat lands on the "fi" in "difficult." Try saying "not difficult" over and over in time with the sound file below. Another phrase with the same rhythm is "cold cup of tea":

Image:Music cross-rhythm, cold cup of tea.PNG

Similar phrases for the 3 against 4 polyrhythm are "pass the gold-en but-ter" and "what atrocious weather"; The 3 against 4 polyrhythm is shown below.
3 against 4 polyrhythm 4-beat rhythm X X X X X X X X
3-beat rhythm X X X X X X

Image:Music cross-rhythm, what atrocious weather.PNG

As can be seen from above, the counting for polyrhythms is determined by the lowest common multiple, so if one wishes to count 2 against 3, one needs to count a total of 6 beats, as lcm(2,3) = 6 (123456 and 123456). However this is only useful for very simple or polyrhythms, or for getting a feel for more complex ones, as the total number of beats rises quickly. To count 4 against 5, for example, requires a total of 20 beats, and counting thus slows the tempo considerably. However some players, such as classical Indian musicians, can intuitively play high polyrhythms such as 7 against 8.


Zo. En nu heb ik echt geen zin de opmaak te fixen.


Babylon
De enige echte
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Posted 07-07-2006 0:53 by Babylon Profiel van Babylon

Pff jij denkt dat ik dat ga lezen?


zo kan ie wel weer


Jällö
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Posted 07-07-2006 12:02 by Jällö Profiel van Jällö

Om een lang verhaal kort te maken Thomas Haake speelt idd geen polyrhythms maar polymetres.


Information is not knowledge is not wisdom is not truth


Hexegot
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Posted 07-07-2006 12:26 by Hexegot Profiel van Hexegot

Of in het Nederlands: hij maakt geen gebruik van polyritmiek, maar van polymetriek.


Jällö
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Posted 07-07-2006 12:55 by Jällö Profiel van Jällö

Aah, polymetriek is het Nederlandse woord. Goed om te weten.


Information is not knowledge is not wisdom is not truth


MystuS
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Posted 08-07-2006 14:56 by MystuS Profiel van MystuS

Als het maar grooved.

Leuk hoor, al die muziektheorie, maar het gaat er nog steeds in eerste instantie om wat je speelt, hoe het overkomt, en wat er mee wil bereiken.

"Kijk naar mij, ik speel polymetre's in een polyritmische maatsoort terwijl de gitarist van mijn band er volledig tegen in gaat door dezelfde riff te spelen, alleen dan 2/23 noten verspringend!!!"
Ja knap hoor dat je het kan, maar het klinkt kut...


Drummer nodig?


Audiophile
ZM Dominee
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Posted 08-07-2006 21:30 by Audiophile Profiel van Audiophilehttp://www.last.fm/user/AudiophileXL

Het is ook de kunst om je muziektheorie toe te passen...



MystuS
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Posted 08-07-2006 22:17 by MystuS Profiel van MystuS

Eens, maar wel in dienst van de muziek.

Ik kan in mijn band ook wel rare maatsoorten en polymetre's of andere ongein spelen onder een normale 2/4 thrashbeat, maar het klinkt niet en heeft nauwelijks toegevoegde waarde.


Drummer nodig?


Snaack
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Posted 08-07-2006 23:03 by Snaack Profiel van Snaack

dat lijkt me wel interessant, "math-thrash"


Lulfiep
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Posted 09-07-2006 22:55 by Lulfiep Profiel van Lulfiep

Math = trash ja.


Over gebrek aan smaak valt niet te twisten.


grindcore
grindtegel
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Posted 09-07-2006 23:11 by grindcore Profiel van grindcore

quote:
Op 6 juli 2006 20:01 schreef Snaack het volgende:
Dan moet je toch even wat beter gaan luisteren of analyses over de songstructuren van Meshuggah gaan bestuderen..

Alleen Tomas speelt al polyritmische ritmes waar ik een punthoofd van krijg. Dan gaat de rest van de band er nog overheen.
[quote] Vind ik wel meevallen



[quote]
Hmmz.. Bij DEP valt het qua polyritmiek wel mee vind ik. Vooral Chris impliceert polyritmiek door hele vage accenten in lineaire ritmes te spelen, maar dan is het dus geen polyritmiek.

Ze spelen vooral veel "odd" maatsoorten en gebruiken veel maffe accenten.
hmm ja, je hebt wel enigsinds gelijk. Dan had ik alleen Ion Dissonance als voorbeeld moeten geven. En de Daughters uiteraard


compfreak
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Posted 12-07-2006 16:42 by compfreak Profiel van compfreak

ik ga binnenkort een Elec drumstel halen (
iemand ervaring met de Yamaha DTXplorer ?


Ethereal
Rawr.
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Posted 12-07-2006 17:17 by Ethereal Profiel van Etherealhttp://www.captainalbatross.nl

quote:
Op 12 juli 2006 16:42 schreef compfreak het volgende:
ik ga binnenkort een Elec drumstel halen (
iemand ervaring met de Yamaha DTXplorer ?


Zit er zelf ook naar te kijken, maar als ik de knoop doorhak ga ik absoluut voor de Rolands. De TD6s als ik het goed heb is niet heel veel duurder, betere sounds (imho), gaasvel snare en een hihat die niet is uitgevoerd als standaard padje maar als bekken-pad.. En vooral de bekkens klinken STUKKEN beter als op de Yamaha! Is natuurlijk wel smaakgebonden, maar ik vond de bekkens echt lelijk op de DTX! Ook op de duurdere sets van Yamaha klonken ze nergens naar, terwijl ik ze op de Roland wèl goed vond klinken! Het zijn nog steeds geen echte bekkens, maar het klonk in ieder geval een stuk beter!

De Roland heeft ook nog een instapsetje, de TD3s geloof ik! Minder editmogelijkheden, minder sounds, maar nog steeds de gaasvel snare en hihat!


Hi! I'm a signature virus. Please copy me into your sig to help me spread.


SlayerRomain
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Posted 12-07-2006 18:28 by SlayerRomain Profiel van SlayerRomain

Juist die rolands zijn echt heel mooi, en klinken gaaf.

De bekkens maken zeker het veschil.
Ook de HH is belangrijk, ik vind het fijner als je het gevoel behoud dat je op echte bekkens sla.

[Dit bericht is gewijzigd door SlayerRomain op 12-07-2006 18:28]



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